Kudzai Kutukwa

So Kutzai Kutukwa, thank you so much for joining me on this live stream. Welcome to Streaming Sets. Thank you Haroun, it’s a pleasure to be here and thank you for having me.

We met last year when it was the inaugural Adopting Bitcoin Conference and we shared the trip down to Mossel Bay. Can we start by you telling me the story of how you found yourself getting to that conference?

Well that’s an interesting story but I think I had known of the Adopting Bitcoin Conference, the El Salvador edition. I had sort of come across it obviously online and of course I managed to catch a few, I think when I’m not too sure if it was 2022 when they had the first one or sometime there but that’s when I became acquainted with them and I watched the conference they had then and the 23 edition Bitcoin Film Fest at a mini film festival that they had during the El Salvador edition.

So because I was already somewhat involved with Bitcoin Film Fest that was also kind of how I came to see the second time, the second time running for the conference and then that’s kind of how I found out that they’re holding an inaugural edition in Cape Town, South Africa in 2024.

So this was I think sometime mid-2023 if I’m not mistaken and I just was excited and I knew I had to be part of it somehow because there was content that I’d created and particularly written content and things that I just felt I hadn’t published anywhere else at that point but these were ideas that I felt needed to be out there.

So they had a call for speakers at the time on their website and I just happened to register with a detailed write-up of what it is that I wanted to speak about and talk about at the conference and Bitcoin Film Fest ended up putting like a mini once again Film Fest.

First of all during that inaugural conference so I was kind of involved from those two fronts that’s kind of how I found myself at adopting Bitcoin 2024.

So by that time it seems like you already had a body of work writing and talking about Bitcoin.

Yes.

Tell me about that what work had you done before we met, what kind of Bitcoin content did you put out?

So mainly the content I was putting out was written content I mainly wrote for initially I was mainly writing for Bitcoin Magazine and my main areas of focus would be Bitcoin circular economies and let’s say new technological developments or upgrades to the Bitcoin protocol and privacy as well because these are areas that are I would say really close to my heart and occasionally where you would have Bitcoin interfacing with centralised entities or where it would butt heads say for example with policies like ESG and how that would affect something like the agricultural sector which is kind of where I usually do a lot of my work.

So there were areas where I would see the interlap and overflow of let’s say Bitcoin related development or Bitcoin related project and areas within those like circulate economies privacy etc which I felt needed to be put out there or at least explained in a different way than anything that I was saying.

So I started out mainly with my own substack then moved to I had Bitcoin Magazine then I started putting out some educational content or you could say fundamental Bitcoin or Bitcoin fundamentals related content on looking glass education which is mainly focused on Bitcoin education for the masses for corporates you name it.

So that’s kind of how I sort of got involved into the Bitcoin education space mainly from a written content perspective.

I’ve written as well for FreedomTick which is focused on privacy Citadel 21 and a few other bite-sized magazines and a few other blogs that focus perhaps on the Lightning Network and on how to enhance and improve usage of the Lightning Network as well.

So it was mainly concentrated in and around those areas. Yeah.

Okay so can we go back to like the beginning like you sound like already like quite accomplished person in terms of like knowing understanding and communicating to other people. So how did you get involved in Bitcoin initially?

Oh that’s an interesting story.

I think I discovered Bitcoin around late 2012.

Late 2012 that’s when I came across the white paper. At the time I was more of a gold bug because we just come out it was just this is like four years after 2008 had happened and also because I grew up and was raised in ZIM in Zimbabwe and Zimbabwe did go through kind of a hyper inflationary episode of its own.

So that episode that I went through kind of woke me up to how monetary policy is very important and how it can make or break a country or an economy.

Further to that when I then discovered the white paper it immediately made sense. I didn’t understand everything initially obviously because I’m more of a business background not the technical side of thing but obviously I kept diving into it rereading and getting some more technically aligned or technically focused people to help me understand it.

But when I did understand it it took me a couple of months because at that time we didn’t have a lot of Bitcoin educational content like we do today.

There was no Bitcoin standard or anything like that so it was just for the most part the Bitcoin white paper and maybe here and there some content from Andreas Antonopoulos that was basically it at least what I had access to at the time.

So that was the majority of the stuff that I was consuming and I eventually I already had been working on a fintech solution for crop insurance but what I didn’t realize at the time is the problem that I was facing or trying to solve on the crop insurance aspect of things was actually a centralization problem created by the fiat monetary system.

So mainly what you’d be thinking of doing when you’re in the fintech sector is trying to create some sort of application layer or application-based business that you can use to solve financial inclusion which is what I was trying to do for small-scale emerging farmers to get them a crop insurance solution that could work at their level that they could afford.

A lot of the solutions that were available then were too expensive or just out of their reach.

So I began to also see how broken the financial system was from that interaction on the ground and just trying to get that you know product to work where we’re trying to do it as an app-based crop insurance product and for that specific sector that I felt needed it the most.

So when you pair these two things together that Bitcoin knowledge as well as this exposure I was getting here from working with farmers and from trying to get like a fintech product to work that’s when it clicked for me to actually say my goodness what we are dealing with is much bigger than what I had initially anticipated.

So once again I started to sort of shop in by this time we’re now let’s say 2016, 17, 18 there about there is now more material out there that’s Bitcoin focused and that also was linking the Austrian economics perspective with how it all relates to the problem with the monetary system.

So now I began to understand the full picture where initially I was looking at it more as a technological issue now I could also see the monetary issue the socioeconomic issue as well and then kind of you know seeing the fuller picture of it and as I was also learning I was encountering a lot of people that I felt needed the solution as much as I did and in trying to talk to them more often than not there was a disconnect in if you meet somebody who’s more technically inclined they might understand the technical aspect but not so much the economical aspects and vice versa and in some cases you would meet people that had no clue about either.

So that’s what just got me started to say you know what let me just give this whole writing thing let me take a stab at it and see if I can kind of try to write in a way where I bring that sort of historical content or historical basis whilst I educate people from okay this is where we came from from a monetary system perspective and this is why this is important this is why gold didn’t work this is why fiat is not the perfect solution and this is why bitcoin is the perfect solution so that’s kind of what my mission was in addition in as much as I had these areas of co-focus but what I was actually trying to do was to take people in that journey with me to say this is where we started from this is the problems with the prison and this is why this is the solution to what we’re currently facing.

I must say the more you speak the more fascinating it sounds so now I have to go even further back what’s your origin story to get you involved in all of these things that you’re talking about?

Well on the crop insurance side what started what’s kicked it off was I think round about 20 should be 2013-14 there was like southern Africa did experience a little bit of a dry spell it wasn’t like a fully fleshed drought so at the time my parents they were somewhat involved in agriculture it’s not like their main thing but something they do let’s say as a you could call it a side hustle and when that drought or dry spell hit I was thinking to myself wouldn’t it make sense that for situations like this a person has some sort of financial product that covers them.

Because at that time they had just started I think it was they just got an into extending or expanding the area of land that they had under cultivation and they had gotten a bank loan for that and what it meant was that because they had done this extension now this dry spell hit meant that now whatever profits they were expecting from that agricultural business or at least from that expansion we’re now not going to be realized as as much as they thought so that’s what got me to start to think about okay there has to be a solution for this and that’s when I started to at that time.

I had no intention of I wasn’t in any way shape or form involved with either agriculture or insurance or any of that stuff.

My background is more marketing so that’s where I was really coming from but more from the product side. I was thinking, there has to be kind of a product that at least on the market today that can help farmers like my parents where they’re not necessarily as what you would call a big commercial farmer where they’ve got these use tract of land and they can afford to buy futures contracts and all these other hedging mechanisms that your typical commercial farmer has access to now.

On that journey that’s when I discovered there was nothing for you know that you can call it the missing middle where you’ve got people that are farming commercially but that to allow them you know to afford a lot of these fancy things they’re not necessarily subsistence farmers were consuming but they’re not as big as you know your typical commercial farmers as well.

So they’re just you know stuck in that middle somewhere and it was now when I further investigated that that’s when I realized you know I could actually build a product that could take care of this problem and I started working on it. [I] entered a startup competition I think it was called Startup Night 2014 it was in Cape Town so I was still at the concept phase at the time but then my concept won first prize and it had a cash prize of a hundred thousand rand which is what I then used a seed capital to get myself started into like everything else I’m talking about and trying to bring that product online and what that also came with was I started because the competition was sponsored by Standard Bank.

It sort of then gave me access to them and to start to you know work with them to try and bring the product to market and that’s when I started getting you know like face-to-face on this side I’m working with the bank try and bring a fintech product to market and on this side I’m working with farmers and trying to see the huge disconnect between the world of banking and those types of financial products that they currently have that speak to this sector and where they really were in terms of what their actual needs were etc etc.

So yeah that’s kind of how I started to see the whole picture from the ground up as I was launching or running this business and just seeing just how far these two things were divorced from each other and then to start to see at the time because this is pre lightning network so some of the ideas were not practical to implement then otherwise I would have probably just jumped to like a bitcoin based solution then.

But prior to having a lightning network where everything was purely you know like you still had on-chain transactions and you still had that 10-minute processing thing going on it was probably not feasible at the time to have like a bitcoin based product but it was something that we actually worked on and thought about extensively at the time so we ended up having to do to go very low-tech then what would it like to do yeah so that’s kind of the backstory that then kind of got me landed here.

Okay that’s exactly what I wanted to do just to let me see if I can recap your backstory so you can tell me if I got it correct, so your parents are like small-scale farmers and they had taken out a loan to develop some more agriculture on the land that they already had but when they did that that’s when like probably El Nino or El Nino or some kind of yes atmospheric effect led to a bit of droughts in southern Africa and because of the the uncertainty paying off that loan and being profitable you went looking for some kind of solution to help these kind of like you said the missing middle and this eventually led you to this entire adventure that you had coming up with this product winning a pitch competition and then actually trying to use like bitcoin or the lightning network is to facilitate some of that and all of that led you into coming to the the bitcoin the adopting bitcoin conference last year.

So yes it was all part of the journey like I said one one thing led to another and everything was so interesting I didn’t you didn’t even though you talked a lot on our journey because we actually shared the car to go down to Mossel Bay and even though I may not have like spoken to you directly because I was either driving or relaxing concentrating on the road I did listen to a lot of conversation coming in from the rest of you guys because it was just a wealth of knowledge but I didn’t know any of these things, so my next question to you is, what are you doing now what’s your why couldn’t you come to the this one that we just had?

So I didn’t get the last part why couldn’t you attend the last one because you weren’t there right oh yeah yeah yeah yeah I didn’t attend the ’25 unfortunately I was supposed to attend but something came up last minute so essentially what happened was okay let me start with the first question what I’m currently doing so I’m still working with farmers where we’re doing now we’ve incorporated training we’ve also incorporated because once you start working in that field you’re going to think okay this is the one problem I’m going to attack and solve but then you see that this one problem is related to this other problem and this other problem so one of the things that we then discovered as we started on that journey was they they had two issues going on they felt like crop insurance they understood the whole concept of insurance because a lot of them have stuff like funeral cover and you know those types of insurance products so it’s not like they were oblivious totally to what insurance is and how it works but on the crop side where their skepticism came from was where they would say stuff like listen I’ve been farming for the last 20 30 years and I’ve never had any of these fancy financial products and whenever there would be a drought we will just take it head on bite it on the chin you know whatever happens happens so they there was that bit of hesitancy but the more I dug deeper the more I spoke to them the more I realized that the problem wasn’t actually that the problem was their distrust of insurers to say what if now an event happens I need to claim and the insurer denies my claim on the basis that for whatever reason and I’ve been paying my premiums faithfully all this other month all of them had different stories whether true or not that remains to be seen of a friend of a friend or someone they know that was faithfully paying for an insurance product but they got their claim denied so that was where really the hesitancy was coming from so the way we came about was to try and have something that doesn’t necessarily require someone to claim with just a simple product climate related where the question is did it drain did it not if it didn’t get adequate training immediately get a payout without you having to claim so that’s kind of how we were now approaching it and working with them in groups and as we started going on that journey then we realized they’ve also got market access issues that the income they’re earning because of the fact that they’re not investing as much as they should on this side obviously now you have market access where you’re not producing enough produce that can get you the higher prices that you would get because the thing is the more if you have let’s say if you bring to the market 10 000 tons of let’s say maize as an example you’re likely to get a better price than somebody who’s just going to bring like a hundred tons or less so they didn’t have you know that again that’s still a problem even to this day so those are some of the issues and you know the trainings some of it is not just financial it’s more technical know-how and that’s where that’s more on the marketing side that we’re trying to also help so regularly every now and then we do host some of these training sessions which leads me to where in january i had one of these training sessions scheduled and i had one of my facilitators back out last minute because of a family emergency and i couldn’t replace them during the time so it’s sort of coincided with adopting the coin 25 that’s why i couldn’t make it this time around even though i was supposed to make it because now i had to step in and just make sure that on that end that also went smoothly so it’s still the same work currently um right now we just i think we are now looking to see if we can build a bitcoin based product since now the market is ready you now have something like the lightning network and i believe there’s more technological tools that can be used to create a more affordable more automated product that you can easily roll out to different markets not just in south africa but in the the rest of the continent and if need be beyond where you have these issues around you’re facing a lot of these climate risks and at the same time what it really does it’s more psychological in that if you’re a farmer all of your costs are up front so you’re going to pay for your maize pay for your fertilizer pay for all the inputs up front but your payout is three or so months later depending on when you harvest so should anything happen in between let’s say a drought a flood hail whatever that’s weather related that can destroy your crops it means the moment that happens that event that entire investment gets lost not only do you lose that investment but you know that there’s no inflow or cash flow coming in once as well so this is kind of the difference in that business model in that it’s not it’s not like a business model where you get an immediate payout but it’s a business model where you’re investing a whole lot of money up front and then your payout comes right at the end depending also on your ability to get your product to market on the prices that you’re going to get for the produce and on how much of that produce you’re going to get to the market without it being damaged either post harvest losses or by the weather so it’s a very risky business essentially that’s the point i’m trying to make and to actually get into it without some sort of insurance it means that what you’re going to do especially if you’re a small scale or if you’re still starting out it will limit the amount of money that you’re going to invest that’s one two most banks currently will not give you meaningful loans if you are not insured because i’m talking production loans because what my parents actually did is when they took out a loan it was a personal loan but it wasn’t an agricultural production loan in the same way that a commercial farmer or like you would get a commercial business loan so if you don’t have some sort of insurance chances of you getting a production loan are next to nil and if you’re not in a position or in a place where you can get let’s say some sort of personal loan that also limits the extent to which you can expand your farming business and your farming capacity so this is how all of these little pieces are linked into why this problem was really or why it’s a very essential problem to solve in terms of once it’s solved how much it can unlock but at the same time in addition to solving that problem you also want to solve the other issues which deal with how much money the farmer makes and that now where the market acts is the education and so on Mr. Kudzai, Kutukua, you still there? I think we’ve lost Kudzai, it happened the last time and I had to wait for him a little for a little bit um yeah it’s a problem I know I’m so sorry about that but yeah it definitely is a connection issue on Kudzai’s part when we were trying to set up I actually posted on um my I posted on my NOSTA on Primal that we’re having some trouble connecting with Kudzai and I think that’s exactly what what happened I don’t know if I should wait it’s already like an hour into we didn’t speak for long as you can see so much interesting things you were saying we just have a look we’re about to speak to Kudzai let me screen capture so this is my Primal I and I am still learning this um the software well that’s really big obviously you know I’m doing this because I’m still waiting for Kudzai to hopefully join us again Kudzai sorry I think it I don’t know what happened I think the same thing that happened last time yeah but at least I’m back now so yeah all I was just explaining was how all the different pieces linked and um why my adopting Bitcoin 25 experience didn’t happen even though I was really bummed out about it but yeah that’s kind of um what got in the way to that work tax priority I want you to ask about that you mentioned that you were on the verge of like building Bitcoin or especially since the lightning network is more robust now into your product so is that still the case that you are are working on it or going to be working on it it’s definitely something that we’re exploring obviously um we’re exploring it on two fronts there’s there’s the regulatory aspect which we have to continually be mindful of at least when you’re working with stuff let’s say in that insurance space so that’s kind of what we are keeping our eyes on at the moment but I think the technological aspect of it isn’t complicated once you because what you would just do now is for example to to to sort of let me just quickly unpack it that normally what you would have is when you’re paying for an insurance product right usually the insurance company would run a debit order through your bank account and then they collect in whatever the premium means every other month or whatever payment arrangement that you would have set up but basically the long and short of it is it’s regulated or it it’s it’s somewhat governed through your your bank account now with some of the farmers that we’re working with a lot of them they’re either don’t have bank accounts or if they do have bank accounts it’s one of those where it’s mostly transactional so they are not necessarily keeping any money there it’s just when they need to pay someone or something that’s when they necessarily use it but for the most part it’s a very cash-based type economy if you will so to cater for that what initially before we got to start to think about this part initially what we’re trying to do is to create a product where you could pay for your insurance by in the same way that you would top up your air time where it’s a ussd code you just buy your normal air time or whatever and then that’s how you somewhat kind of pay your premium but obviously there were issues and problems with that when we’re trying to implement that but we felt that if you’re going to do micro insurance product because the premium is not going to be that high the monthly premium you also need to have a payment mechanism which is an expensive because you can’t be using let’s say debit orders or that sort of payment system to for the payment of like micro insurance products it’s just not practical from a cost perspective for anyone involved so that was kind of the initial idea tested it out at the time given the way we implemented it it was going to be too expensive it wasn’t going to work so it’s things like that where now when you have the lightning network that’s an immediate use case and something that a problem that can be immediately addressed in terms of like how do you pay your premium and how do you pay out claims because the premiums are small the payouts are also not that large so once again managing those financial or let me say transactional costs and financially related costs associated with that it’s much easier and much more efficient when you have a solution like the lightning network but trying to build that pre- lightning network yeah was a bit of an issue so just to sort of give you like a quick overview or an example that’s how that’s one way in which implementing the lightning network could actually help in terms of onboarding and building a product that could help you know from an insurance perspective and you can even take it beyond insurance if you’re going to get into stuff let’s say like micro loans or micro finance once again still same rails that you would use within a certain product that would probably be useful in terms of dispersing the loans as well as when the loans are being repaid it would make everything much more efficient much more faster and much more cheaper which would actually help a lot of farmers you know get to business because sometimes these are the issues they have to grapple with outside of the normal approval process etc etc yeah so if I can summarize your business can I call it like the pineapple of farmers insurance I would say that’s where we are headed to that that’s the idea that we are trying to actually build out now what we did is pre because of the whole COVID thing we somewhat had to scale back during that period on a lot of you could say innovations and plans that we had so that’s why we kept it low-tech for the longest time but eventually when everything is once every product is built in out there definitely it’ll be the pineapple of crop of agricultural insurers yeah you can look at it that way okay so let’s talk a little bit about NOSTA because you are one of my active NOSTA participants colleagues I post you like you I I’m still new to NOSTA and I don’t have like a big Twitter like engagement was never my main social network and now that I’m like you know getting off all of these centralized platforms I’m trying to give more of my attention to NOSTA before we went live I told you about my my thesis my idea so I’m trying to be more active on NOSTA to learn about it more so I want to hear your experience please well just like you I think I’m I’m also in NOSTA I think everyone at this point is a NOSTA newbie there aren’t any NOSTA veterans given how new the protocol is but I would say my experience on NOSTA has been very very much positive now I also don’t have like a big Twitter account or following but I used to use Twitter a lot it was actually I think since 20 I’d say 2019 2020 it actually became my more you could say my main social media platform initially to what’s Facebook but yeah I migrated gradually away from Facebook and more to Twitter but I would say what I like about NOSTA at least what I’ve seen I like the idea that you can have a social networking platform which is censorship resistant and where you can control your identity and where you are not silenced based on whatever it is that you’re discussing whatever it is that you are putting out there and apart from that where there isn’t I’ll I like to use this term algorithmic pollution right where you don’t have algorithms trying to determine what you see or do not see on your feet and where you just see and follow things and people and topics that you find interesting the problem that you now have with say your centralized social media platforms and networks like Twitter is that it’s mainly geared towards your advertisers so because it’s geared towards your advertisers that’s one two you’ve got algorithms that are trying to infect your feet with things that may or may not be interesting to you and you actually don’t get to see the stuff that is being posted by people that you’re interested in and that you want to follow then you also have stuff like shadow bands where you’re actually following somebody but you realize after a while why am I not seeing their posts are they silent are they not saying are they not posting only to realize they’ve been posting the whole time but for whatever reason you are not seeing their posts because of shadow banning or whatever on NOSTR is a totally different world at least my experience you don’t have any of that stuff where your feed gets censored in any way or where you have ads coming in every now and then or where you have priority being given to certain type of content over others you just see whatever it is that you want to see that is based on how you have tailor or customized your feed to look like so that level of that degree of freedom for me it’s a you can feel it’s night and day when you go back on Twitter and you see you can experience a difference from that and even the whole and this is my favorite part Zaps I love Zaps on NOSTR because it’s really real I call it real feedback because there people are putting their money with their mouth is and it’s not just a simple like but it’s feedback to say your content is good or this type of stuff we like where you’re getting real feedback from your audience that is you could say more valuable it’s a more valuable signal when someone even if it’s 10 sass 21 sass whatever the case is but I think that’s a more valuable signal than just a simple like and as much as a simple like of course it helps but the Zaps for me are like the real signal because when you see certain posts that have received obviously some of them have large followings but when you see a post with 12 000 Zaps 1000 2000 sass or whatever that sort of gives you an idea of in terms of how valuable that certain particular post is to the people that viewed it and were willing to part with sass for it it’s also a good indicator of um or let me say the potential for content creators there is quite huge because now you’re getting real time monetization where there isn’t any sort of middleman no PayPal no Google no nothing that comes in between you and whatever content you’re putting out so I’ve had a lot of I can literally rank my whatever written content I put out ever since I’ve been on NOSTR how effective or how much it resonated with people not just by how many likes it gets but by also how many zaps and how many sass it earns doesn’t have to be a lot but at least it’s a I would say much more powerful signal for me so because like I mentioned my background is marketing from a more marketing perspective one of the things you want to do is to figure out how well something is being received in the market and how well something to put it differently whether this is resonating with the target market or not zaps are like good feedback to tell you whether that is working or how much something resonates of course it’s not the only thing that determines that but I’m just saying at the end of the day it’s a really valuable way to gauge um yeah how well something is doing and finally I’ll also say the engagement on NOSTR is actually much more valuable it’s less bots more people and it’s more organic so to me that’s pretty much why like I was telling you earlier before we started recording that ever since I would say the beginning of this year I was actually spending more time on NOSTR than I was on like Twitter in as much as my following not to not to let me say it like this in as much as you have fewer people that are on NOSTR and that also accounts to whether people you follow or that follow you and because a lot of the people are still on centralized platform at least in my social circles not all of them are on NOSTR it’s very it becomes I would say a bit challenging to share content or stuff that what you would have seen on NOSTR or that you would want to put out let’s say to them if they’re not on the platform or if they’re they don’t they are yet to kind of join in so lots of potential very excited about NOSTR and um yeah I’m going to definitely be increasing my activity over then hopefully who knows maybe build something with NOSTR in the coming future um so are you still doing like a lot of the writing and all of that that you spoke about when we first started this live thing writing about Bitcoin for Bitcoin magazine and does that kind of work yes I still do writing even though I haven’t published on Bitcoin magazine for a while now I think this year I haven’t published anything on Bitcoin magazine I’ve published on my own personal substack and one other NOSTR based publishing platforms obviously because like I was mentioning before it’s a platform that I’m also trying to get used to in terms of using it and seeing where perhaps it could use some improvement but to also push some of that writing content and make it live natively on NOSTR is something that I’m also doing so working with um up-and-coming magazines or even some blogs that I’m still doing a whole lot of that publishing and still a lot of writing I think the last article I published was about a week or two ago where I was just basically commenting on the whole IMF El Salvador situation so yeah in the writing space I’m still very much active and still doing a lot of that writing I think I put out in peace maybe once or twice a month obviously it has somewhat slowed down like unlike what I used to do before but I’m still very much involved with that was it did you publish it on a NOSTR based like a blog or website like Habla or Yaqui Han or was it like one of the additional blogs that you know so well from before the NOSTR era? I used both so I initially published it on I think I published it on Highlighter which is a NOSTR based um publishing platform and I also published it on Substack and it got picked up by other I think Bite Size magazine which then pushed it out to more centralized platforms like Twitter and then because they also kind of have a NOSTR hub they also pushed it out on NOSTR as well so I sort of used both to just kind of measure the whole engagement and also because some of the stuff that I or the message that I’m trying to push out when you’re on platforms like NOSTR in places like that you’re mainly going to be preaching to the choir so some of the people that we want to reach out who are yet to transfer or migrate to these platforms are still engaged in interacting with platforms like Substack, Medium, etc so that’s the rationale why I sort of at this point I use both so that no one gets left behind.

But those that are still interacting more with the traditional platform you can still get them and then those that are also in the new world on the NOSTR side you can also kind of get them to interact with the content and then again from a feedback perspective you also get feedback from multiple sides as well so yeah that’s kind of how I’m running that at this point. Kutzi we’ve been speaking for a while I know you’re a busy man I’m not going to keep you any longer I just want to thank you so much for coming on my show I’d like you to come back sometime because I know this conversation is not over I can tell you are a man that has a lot to share and I would love to pick your brain some more at another time.

I would love to do I’ll be willing to come back anytime and thank you very much for this interesting and interactive discussion I thoroughly enjoyed it myself. Thank you so much Kutzi we shall speak again.